Comments on: GunLoon Myths: The Changing Numbers of Dr. Kellermann http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/ Always Correct, It's A Gift Sun, 19 May 2013 14:41:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Administrator http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-345 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:42:44 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-345 K-R: What you say is true; Kellermann's research didn't demonstrate the murder weapon was the actual weapon used in the homicide. However, what you're suggesting is far more remote: that people came to a household (that happened to have a firearm) with a weapon (not always a gun) and were involved in a gun homicide. A possibility is that a family member or intimate acquaintance brings a gun to a household (with a gun), intent on mayhem. However, this remote possibility doesn't help your argument that a gun in the house makes one safer. WRT to your second point, I'm afraid you're confusing the issue. The study never claimed residents committed most of the homicides--it said: gun-owning households saw an increased (21 times) murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances. K-R: What you say is true; Kellermann’s research didn’t demonstrate the murder weapon was the actual weapon used in the homicide. However, what you’re suggesting is far more remote: that people came to a household (that happened to have a firearm) with a weapon (not always a gun) and were involved in a gun homicide. A possibility is that a family member or intimate acquaintance brings a gun to a household (with a gun), intent on mayhem. However, this remote possibility doesn’t help your argument that a gun in the house makes one safer.

WRT to your second point, I’m afraid you’re confusing the issue. The study never claimed residents committed most of the homicides–it said: gun-owning households saw an increased (21 times) murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances.

]]> by: k-romulus http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-343 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:01:36 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-343 No, I'm afraid you are wrong. Kellermann's numerous studies never demonstrated that the murder weapon was the actual gun kept "in" the home. PLUS, as shown in Deltoid by a commenter who reviewed the data (unanswered by Lambert) , most homicides were committed by nonresidents. No, I’m afraid you are wrong. Kellermann’s numerous studies never demonstrated that the murder weapon was the actual gun kept “in” the home. PLUS, as shown in Deltoid by a commenter who reviewed the data (unanswered by Lambert) , most homicides were committed by nonresidents.

]]> by: Administrator http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-342 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:53:05 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-342 Michael: I'll answer your last question first: yes. The evidence is plain, a gun in the household presents a higher risk of homicide to its inhabitants than those that don't. What's more--a gun is many more times more likely to be used against a household member or intimate acquaintance than an unknown intruder. Michael: I’ll answer your last question first: yes. The evidence is plain, a gun in the household presents a higher risk of homicide to its inhabitants than those that don’t.

What’s more–a gun is many more times more likely to be used against a household member or intimate acquaintance than an unknown intruder.

]]> by: Michael Hawkins http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-339 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:50:27 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-339 "Michael: Why demonstrate your ignorance? Can’t we just acknowledge it and move on? Or shall I explain to you how silly your analogy is?" . Please do! . I'll even elaborate on that analogy: People who fear they are at risk of being murdered buy weapons to protect them from that perceived threat. . Murder is a highly personal matter which most often takes place between acquainted people. . Thus, it's no surprise that households with a gun are more likely to house a victim of violent crime, perpetrated either by a member of the household or by an outsider. . Please Jade, do tell me how silly I am! Silly would be people insinuating causality which cannot be proven. . So after you point out how silly I am, could you please answer this question: Are people more likely to get killed BECAUSE a gun is present in their household? “Michael: Why demonstrate your ignorance? Can’t we just acknowledge it and move on? Or shall I explain to you how silly your analogy is?”
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Please do!
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I’ll even elaborate on that analogy:
People who fear they are at risk of being murdered buy weapons to protect them from that perceived threat.
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Murder is a highly personal matter which most often takes place between acquainted people.
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Thus, it’s no surprise that households with a gun are more likely to house a victim of violent crime, perpetrated either by a member of the household or by an outsider.
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Please Jade, do tell me how silly I am! Silly would be people insinuating causality which cannot be proven.
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So after you point out how silly I am, could you please answer this question:
Are people more likely to get killed BECAUSE a gun is present in their household?

]]> by: Scott http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-337 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:26:15 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-337 No, No, No,. Not confusing facts with faith. You and I both can quote stats all daaaaay long. I will not change your mind, and you will not change mine. Unless it can be proven that 100% of all households that contain firearms will have some type of accident or death due to them, that stat means nothing. The one stat, in my case, that is 100% true is that any "bad" guy that enters my house, car, or property with intent to do harm to me or my family will suffer an increased chance of dying. No, No, No,. Not confusing facts with faith. You and I both can quote stats all daaaaay long. I will not change your mind, and you will not change mine. Unless it can be proven that 100% of all households that contain firearms will have some type of accident or death due to them, that stat means nothing. The one stat, in my case, that is 100% true is that any “bad” guy that enters my house, car, or property with intent to do harm to me or my family will suffer an increased chance of dying.

]]> by: Administrator http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-336 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:32:14 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-336 Thirdpower, your gunloon pals are going to start thinking you're on my side given the way you keep teeing up the issues for me. <a href="http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/cocoon/ICPSR/STUDY/06898.xml" rel="nofollow">The Data Sets Thirdpower Claims Kellermann Never Released</a> Thirdpower, your gunloon pals are going to start thinking you’re on my side given the way you keep teeing up the issues for me.

The Data Sets Thirdpower Claims Kellermann Never Released

]]> by: thirdpower http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-334 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:30:52 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-334 OK butterbar. Since you say so it must be true. Ad Hominems, selective reading, and all. Remember folks "controlled" doesn't really = tweaking the numbers to say whatever you want them to. Of course the fact that he's never released his full data sets is just more proof of how strong these "research papers" are. OK butterbar. Since you say so it must be true. Ad Hominems, selective reading, and all.

Remember folks “controlled” doesn’t really = tweaking the numbers to say whatever you want them to.

Of course the fact that he’s never released his full data sets is just more proof of how strong these “research papers” are.

]]> by: Administrator http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-333 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:10:44 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-333 Your link was demonstrated to be false. It claimed Kellermann's study was disproportionately comprised of past criminal offenders. Yet, his study controlled for that. Additionally, your link cites Kleck who does change his numbers more frequently than you change your underoos. Of course, Kleck's "research" has been thoroughly debunked on this site. Your link was demonstrated to be false. It claimed Kellermann’s study was disproportionately comprised of past criminal offenders. Yet, his study controlled for that.

Additionally, your link cites Kleck who does change his numbers more frequently than you change your underoos. Of course, Kleck’s “research” has been thoroughly debunked on this site.

]]> by: thirdpower http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-331 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:02:13 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-331 Right. Providing links isn't "proof" in butterbar's world. His version of "proof" is repeating Kevin's name over and over again. I guess he has convieniently forgotten the recent polls on gun laws and NRA support that have already been sourced on Snowflakes even though he was involved in that thread. But we don't really expect much more. Do we? Right. Providing links isn’t “proof” in butterbar’s world. His version of “proof” is repeating Kevin’s name over and over again. I guess he has convieniently forgotten the recent polls on gun laws and NRA support that have already been sourced on Snowflakes even though he was involved in that thread. But we don’t really expect much more. Do we?

]]> by: Administrator http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-330 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:52:37 +0100 http://leftrudder.blogsome.com/2007/09/18/gunloon-myths-the-changing-numbers-of-dr-kellermann/#comment-330 Once more, Thirdpower cannot offer proof of his claims. That's because such evidence simply doesn't exist. And as for my "failing political movement," polls consistently show Americans favor stricter gun laws by a wide margin over those who favor less strict laws. George Bush could only dream of 'failing' so well. Once more, Thirdpower cannot offer proof of his claims. That’s because such evidence simply doesn’t exist.

And as for my “failing political movement,” polls consistently show Americans favor stricter gun laws by a wide margin over those who favor less strict laws. George Bush could only dream of ‘failing’ so well.

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